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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Create a card that decreases the entropy of the game.

Possible entropy defenitions:
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:45 pm 
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Escape Plan - :8::w::w:
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may restart the game.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:29 pm 
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Supreme Seal
:3::w::u:
Enchantment
Each player can't cast more than one spell each turn.
No more than one creature can attack each combat.
No more than one creature can block each combat.
Players can't take extra turns, phases, or steps.
If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, that player skips that draw instead.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:24 pm 
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I like the flavor but practically I feel like it's trying to hate too many things at once and isn't efficient enough at any of them to really be worthwhile.

:duel:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:24 pm 
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Suspend Causality
Enchantment
If another permanent would leave the battlefield or exchange control, scry 1 instead.
Creatures don't die from having 0 or less toughness.

Turning this into a creature + Ixidron/Sudden Spoiling is how you counter this (if there are two of them on the battlefield protecting each other). Or preventing the player from scrying that turn.

This + ...
Bottle Gnomes
Voidmage Prodigy
Kami of False Hope

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:45 pm 
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Antientropic Entity | :1::w::u:
Creature - Elemental

~ can't be blocked.
~ can't trigger effects. (This includes when it is not on the battlefield.)

2/2

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:32 am 
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Duelscape
Enchantment (M)
Creatures can't attack or block.
At the beginning of each player's declare attackers step, that player exiles a creature he or she controls, then returns it to the battlefield tapped and attacking. Then at the beginning of the declare blockers step, defending player exiles a creature he or she controls, then returns it to the battlefield blocking that creature.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:12 am 
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Quote:
Walking the Edge
Enchantment (M)
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may have your life total become 1.
As long as you have exactly 1 life, you have protection from everything. (You can't be targeted, dealt damage, or enchanted.)
Perched at the very precipice of oblivion, one either faces despair . . . or enlightenment.
Visual Image Render

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:39 am 
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Flopfoot wrote:
Escape Plan - :8::w::w:
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may restart the game.


Entropy reduction : 9/10
Card: 7/10

Supreme Seal
:3::w::u:
Enchantment
Each player can't cast more than one spell each turn.
No more than one creature can attack each combat.
No more than one creature can block each combat.
Players can't take extra turns, phases, or steps.
If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, that player skips that draw instead.


Entropy reduction: 7/10
Card: 6/10 (The fun tbing about this card is how ridiculously unfun it tries to be. That, IMHO, justifies the existence of this concept.)

gd1w wrote:
Suspend Causality
Enchantment
If another permanent would leave the battlefield or exchange control, scry 1 instead.
Creatures don't die from having 0 or less toughness.

Turning this into a creature + Ixidron/Sudden Spoiling is how you counter this (if there are two of them on the battlefield protecting each other). Or preventing the player from scrying that turn.

This + ...
Bottle Gnomes
Voidmage Prodigy
Kami of False Hope


Entropy reduction: 7/10
Card: 7/10 (Yeah, Mogg Fanatic & friends is the best reason to play this, probably)

Antientropic Entity | :1::w::u:
Creature - Elemental

~ can't be blocked.
~ can't trigger effects. (This includes when it is not on the battlefield.)

2/2


Entropy reduction: 3/10 (Not much more then Phantom Warrior. Second ability doesn't actually reduce the entropy of the game, it only reduces the additional entropy entropt in the game by this card.)
Card: 8/10

Duelscape
Enchantment (M)
Creatures can't attack or block.
At the beginning of each player's declare attackers step, that player exiles a creature he or she controls, then returns it to the battlefield tapped and attacking. Then at the beginning of the declare blockers step, defending player exiles a creature he or she controls, then returns it to the battlefield blocking that creature.


Entropy reduction: 6/10
Card: 8/10 (Fun)

Tahazzar wrote:
Quote:
Walking the Edge
Enchantment (M)
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may have your life total become 1.
As long as you have exactly 1 life, you have protection from everything. (You can't be targeted, dealt damage, or enchanted.)
Perched at the very precipice of oblivion, one either faces despair . . . or enlightenment.
Visual Image Render


Entropy reduction: 6/10
Card: 4/10 (Bluntly requires life loss, AWC, or enchantment removal. Basically kills 90% of mono , and decks, and 99.9% of mono decks. Doesn't require any interesting building around, other then ways to cheat and protect it.)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Tahazzar wrote:
Quote:
Walking the Edge
Enchantment (M)
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may have your life total become 1.
As long as you have exactly 1 life, you have protection from everything. (You can't be targeted, dealt damage, or enchanted.)
Perched at the very precipice of oblivion, one either faces despair . . . or enlightenment.
Visual Image Render


Entropy reduction: 6/10
Card: 4/10 (Bluntly requires life loss, AWC, or enchantment removal. Basically kills 90% of mono , and decks, and 99.9% of mono decks. Doesn't require any interesting building around, other then ways to cheat and protect it.)

has bounce, counterspells and also cards like Confiscate. That's a pretty huge oversight on your part lol. You could argue it being the best color to handle this.

If you're playing a mono- deck, you're probably burn and if you haven't won by your eighth turn (drop this on turn 7, set life total to 1 at next upkeep) you were losing anyway. Also, "Skullcrack myself and Flame Rift" works, though that's not likely to happen though unless specifically sideboarded it in, which is pretty easy actually given that both of those cards have seen play in burn decks.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:03 pm 
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These kinds of cards that require very specific answers aren't good design by modern standards. A good rule of thumb is to expect people to only be able to remove creatures. By the way, black doesn't have much chance against this. There aren't many life loss effects, and most of the ones there are require you to target the player.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:08 am 
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Flopfoot wrote:
These kinds of cards that require very specific answers aren't good design by modern standards. A good rule of thumb is to expect people to only be able to remove creatures. By the way, black doesn't have much chance against this. There aren't many life loss effects, and most of the ones there are require you to target the player.
So only creatures are allowed to have fun now? I don't ascribe to the idea that every MTG set ever has to obsessed about smashing those pt stats together. With that kind of mindset I can see why WotC would feel obligated to give creature burn (in both of its meanings). It's a reaching a point where when we are talking about stuff to target we can just omit all noncreature permanents as possible targets and speak of "any target" as if... Oh wait. This is the future with the creature smash dystopia, isn't it?

Anyway, I think this would be still much funnier to play with and against than, say... Darksteel Forge and that card has a bunch of dedicated fans so I could imagine this having those as well.

As far as goes, cards like Night Market Lookout / Vicious Conquistador have been fairly frequent recently though I don't think they see that much play outside of limited :/

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Tahazzar wrote:
Flopfoot wrote:
These kinds of cards that require very specific answers aren't good design by modern standards. A good rule of thumb is to expect people to only be able to remove creatures. By the way, black doesn't have much chance against this. There aren't many life loss effects, and most of the ones there are require you to target the player.
So only creatures are allowed to have fun now? I don't ascribe to the idea that every MTG set ever has to obsessed about smashing those pt stats together. With that kind of mindset I can see why WotC would feel obligated to give creature burn (in both of its meanings). It's a reaching a point where when we are talking about stuff to target we can just omit all noncreature permanents as possible targets and speak of "any target" as if... Oh wait. This is the future with the creature smash dystopia, isn't it?

Anyway, I think this would be still much funnier to play with and against than, say... Darksteel Forge and that card has a bunch of dedicated fans so I could imagine this having those as well.

As far as goes, cards like Night Market Lookout / Vicious Conquistador have been fairly frequent recently though I don't think they see that much play outside of limited :/


I'm actually with you on this one, Tahazzar. I like decks not based on creatures, I like alternative strategies, and I don't think MTG should avoid any shadow of a lock like fire. But I think that a card should not make a key strategic element of most decks completely fail all by itself, even if there are enough niche answers to it (most of which don't answer most other threats).

Indestructability + multiblocking (creature with one + aura/equipment with other) - locks all creatures without evasion, but answerable by harder removal, enchantment/artifact removal, evasion, flicker and bounce, and direct damage.
No Mercy effects - makes it much harder to push with most creatures, but needs life gain for a true lock, also countered by Indestructability, regeneration, repeatable recursion, token generation, direct damage (and pinging), enchantment/whatever removal, and stuff.
Instant-speed discard - needs opponent to be empty-handed, answerable by instant-speed removal, self-recursion (incl. Flashback and stuff), a developed board, or any good draw engine.

All those options are potentially brutal locks, now almost 100% avoided by WotC, but IMHO could be included at right costs. They all require building around, they have more countermeasures, and they don't 100% lock everything until you really get going.

There's also pillowfort and turbofog and (mostly overpriced, bud still) land destruction and stuff, which isn't 100% avoided.


And yeah, untargeted lifeloss is niche, as well as bounce and stealing that can affect enchantments. Also blue has mill and most of other AWCs, but that's even more niche. Counterspells aren't, sure, but this doesn't prove the card's not hard to deal with.

EDIT: CORRECTED A HUGE TYPO

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:11 pm 
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I'm actually with you on this one, Tahazzar. I like decks not based on creatures, I like alternative strategies, and I don't think MTG should avoid any shadow of a lock like fire.

You might like my deck surgery deck then, but it's not a nice way to win.
Deck Surgery BG v3

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:41 am 
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And yeah, untargeted lifeloss is niche, as well as bounce and stealing that can affect enchantments. Also blue has mill and most of other AWCs, but that's even more niche. Counterspells aren't, sure, but this doesn't prove the card's not hard to deal with.
Bounce that targets nonland permanents is very common; this standard alone has 7 cards that could bounce an enchantment so you are wrong about that one. This standard incidentally also has Lay Claim, but it's quite rare.

Mill is generally a deck type, so I wouldn't really count it since you have to build your whole deck around that strategy.

If your seven mana enchantment with a delayed effect that takes a turn to get online wasn't hard to deal with I don't think it would worth running at all. Also, please don't try to throw that "it's either bad or too powerful - there's no middle ground" trope at me :)

Indestructability + multiblocking (creature with one + aura/equipment with other) - locks all creatures without evasion, but answerable by harder removal, enchantment/artifact removal, evasion, flicker and bounce, and direct damage.
No Mercy effects - makes it much harder to push with most creatures, but needs life gain for a true lock, also countered by Indestructability, regeneration, repeatable recursion, token generation, direct damage (and pinging), enchantment/whatever removal, and stuff.
Instant-speed discard - needs opponent to be empty-handed, answerable by instant-speed removal, self-recursion (incl. Flashback and stuff), a developed board, or any good draw engine.
Your comparison points are way off - these kind of cards aren't entirely nonexistent.

I can think of Solitary Confinement, Transcendence, Energy Field, and Worship.

  • Solitary Confinement is probably the closest comparison, but costs less than half of Edge's mana cost, but requires some combo shell while Edge requires ramp shell or some generic stall shell. Also, if Edge is removed you pretty much lose on the spot while with Confinement you are merely taken a step back. So roughly around the same power level if you ask me.
  • Transcendence is a somewhat similar card in its cost at least. However, it's usually used to abuse the infinite life effect and like Confinement, doesn't leave you on a "I just lost" spot after being removed. In fact, it pretty much wants to be removed so it's quite different in that aspect.
  • Something like Energy Field + Rest in Peace is easy to set up (on turn three to four or so), but I think we have to admit that Energy Field is actually an unfair card.
  • Worship is similar that it leaves you in a rough spot if its removed, but costs around half of what Edge costs. It's also tied to creatures so it hardly compares when we get to details. Having some random indestructible creatures and some way to give any of them shroud/hexproof goes a way long already though and those pieces are useful even without the engine online.

If you want to do something similar with creatures, then you can go Platinum Angel with shroud/hexproof (Diplomatic Immunity / Lightning Greaves?) and/or indestructible, but that needs some work. It should be noted though that that would grant you the straight-up "unable to lose the game at all" effect so it would be a fair amount stronger. You would need a card like Final Judgment to counter it.

Phyrexian Unlife might be worth the mention here as well though it's generally just used to lose any amount of life. Ie. + Ad Nauseam.
Moat is also a classic, but it's there with Energy Field as one of those "too powerful and easy" pile.

If this card was too easy to get out and maintain, some fixes to test out would be to make it legendary and increase the mana cost. I think that would depend on the environment though.

EDIT:

Possible shells to build around the card:
  • ramp: You try to get out the Edge as fast as possible, but you have few ways to protect it afterwards.
  • control: You have the tools to protect Edge, but no way to ramp. The win-rate is likely more related to how well the shell can stall and less so on Edge being an awkward win-con.
  • bant: Theoretically has both aspects, but more prone to being inconsistent.

Very broad match-ups descriptions:
  • Seems unfavorable against decks since nonland bounce is frequently used as well as cards like Banishing Light (white cards that are main deckable and take out enchantments as well).
  • Prolly a coin toss against mono- decks depending on whether they run Naturalize/Acidic Slime/Bramblecrush or whatever in their main deck. Likely the match turns much harder after side boarding.
  • Against aggressive decks it depends whether you can make it to the point where you can drop this and live to your next turn's upkeep (basically skip a turn). Given that aggressive red deck should probably be already winning you before the turn 8 slogs around, it seems less dependent on Edge itself, but on the shell you are running it it like I mentioned before.
  • Favorable against non-aggressive decks unless a card like Vicious Conquistador happens to be commonly run in them. Yay!

All in all, that list seems quite balanced to me.

The main issue would be that in certain match-ups it pretty much wins the game without straight-up stating it out. If you are the opponent and realize you have no answers to it, this would be time to learn about the merits of conceding. It shouldn't also be too hard to come up with some way to wither away your opponent's life total once you have Edge active. You could also rely on your opponent milling out eventually, but at that point I think it becomes more about you being douche just because you can.

However, it should be noted that it isn't as painful as losing to a draw-go deck that basically has a grip-hold on you without you being 100% sure on it since that deck's control relies on hidden information (as it generally is with control decks).

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:35 am 
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You missed a word "now" is "now almost 100% avoided by WotC"

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:14 am 
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You missed a word "now" is "now almost 100% avoided by WotC"
Uh- ... huh. You yourself brought "No Mercy effects" so that somewhat threw me of.

Also, WotC is the guy who says "We won't be printing 1-drop mana dorks anymore, they're just too powerful since you just skip to CMC 3", so that you can so go through CCC forums for couple of years where people keep repeating that mantra as though it had descended from the heavens, only for WotC to go "Lol, nope, we're reprinting Llanowar Elves on the next set. Gotcha." When are you gonna learn? :doh:

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